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  #1  
Alt 15.11.2023, 17:24
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AW: Re: Millennium CGPro2024 v Older CGPro

Hi Ray
It would be nice to state END OF BOOK in the game notations.
Kind regards
Kurt
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Mephisto_Risc (15.11.2023)
  #2  
Alt 16.11.2023, 08:44
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Re: AW: Re: Millennium CGPro2024 v Older CGPro

 Zitat von applechess Beitrag anzeigen
Hi Ray
It would be nice to state END OF BOOK in the game notations.
Kind regards
Kurt
Yes, that is something I used to do but for some reason forgot this time. Funnily, I have made a note in the current game because I thought it strange that the CGP2024 stayed in book slightly longer despite both machines set to Classic book and allegedly both machines have identical books. I'll have to perform some tests after the game.

Kind Regards
Ray
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  #3  
Alt 17.11.2023, 11:58
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Re: Millennium CGPro2024 v Older CGPro

Game 5/10
[Event "CGP2024 V CGP 40m/2h 20m/1h Classic Book"]
[Round "5"]
[White "CGP"]
[Black "CGP2024"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A29"]

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 Bc5 5.Bg2 a6 6.O-O d6 7.d3 O-O 8.Bg5 h6 9.Bxf6 Qxf6 10.Ne4 Qg6 11.Nxc5 dxc5 12.Nd2 Rd8 13.Ne4 b6 14.Nc3 Ra7 15.Nd5 Kf8 16.Qd2 Nd4 17.e3 Nc6 18.f4 Bf5 19.e4 Bg4 20.Rf2 Qh5 21.Raf1 Kg8 22.fxe5 Be6 23.b4 Qxe5 24.bxc5 bxc5 25.Rb1 Qd4 26.Rb3 Ne5 27.Qb2 c6 28.Qxd4 cxd4 29.Nf4 Bg4 30.Bf1 a5 31.Rb6 a4 32.a3 Raa8 33.Rfb2 g5 34.Ng2 f5 35.exf5 Bxf5 36.Ne1 Rf8 37.R6b4 c5 38.Rb5 Rae8 39.Rb1 Nxc4 40.dxc4 Bxb1 41.Rxb1 Re3 42.Bd3 Rfe8 43.Kf2 Kg7 44.Kf1 g4 45.Rd1 Rb8 46.Kg1 Rb3 47.Bf1 Rbc3 48.Nd3 Rxc4 49.Nb2 Rc2 50.Nxa4 Re5 51.Nb6 h5 52.a4 Re3 53.a5 Ra3 54.a6 Rca2 55.Rb1 d3 56.a7 Rxa7 57.Bxd3 Rd2 58.Bf1 Rb7 59.Nc4 Rxb1 60.Nxd2 Rd1 61.Nc4 Ra1 62.Nd2 Rd1 63.Nc4 Kf6 64.Kf2 Ra1 65.Nd2 Ke5 66.Ke2 Rc1 67.Kd3 Rd1 1/2-1/2


As expected, the match so far is close with the CGP2024 nudging ahead with an extra point but we are only half way through the match so anything could happen.

In this game the English, Bremen opening was played and I spotted something that surprised me a little at first. The original CGP was out of book at move 7 while the CGP2024’s stayed in book until move 9 when it had to start thinking. I will have to test this opening with the CGP2024 playing as black to see if its also out of book at move 7. I had thought that they would both have been out of book at the same time, but maybe this is normal and the book moves are unbalanced for white and black. According to the e-mail from Millennium the opening books in both machines are the same so this must be the case.

As a side note:
In the more detailed PDF manual Millennium e-mailed me for the CGP2024 it does not give any information about the books so I have suggested to Millennium they add more information such as names and numbers of moves.

So to the game. I had SF analyse it to highlight blunders but there’s little to report to be honest. Both machines played at their best and the moves marked as bad by SF were beyond the scope of either machine to calculate. For example, in the following position the CGP had just moved 22…Be6

White’s reply was 23.b4 but a better line of play would have been 23.Rf5 Bxf5 24.Rxf5 attacking the Queen 24…Qg6 25.Nf4 Qh7 only option! 26.e6 fxe6 27.Nxe6 and now White is in a very good position. But for the CG machines, to see this line of play through to a definitive advantage would be beyond their horizon.

It’s better to just play through and see the moves and decide for ourselves how well or badly the game was played. Despite being a draw I think they did well and when the CGP2024 offered a draw I accepted on behalf of the CGP as they were both showing a fairly consistent eval of or around 0.00

Current Score 3 – 2 to the CGP2024

Geändert von Ray (19.11.2023 um 13:15 Uhr) Grund: Spelling correction
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  #4  
Alt 19.11.2023, 09:02
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Re: Millennium CGPro2024 v Older CGPro

Game 6/10

[Event "CGP2024 V CGP 40m/2h 20m/1h Classic Book"]
[Round "6"]
[White "CGP2024"]
[Black "CGPro"]
[Result "0-1"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.g3 Bb7 5.Bg2 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.Nc3 Ne4 8.Qc2 Nxc3 9.Qxc3 c5 10.Rd1 d6 11.b3 Bf6 12.Bb2 Qc7 13.Qd2 Rd8 14.dxc5 dxc5 15.Qf4 Na6 16.Qxc7 Nxc7 17.Ne5 Bxg2 {Both players out of book} 18.Kxg2 Ne8 19.f3 g6 20.e4 Rac8 21.Rab1 Bg7 22.Bc3 f6 23.Ng4 f5 24.Bxg7 Kxg7 25.exf5 exf5 26.Ne3 Nc7 27.Nd5 Nxd5 28.cxd5 Rd6 29.Rb2 Rcd8 30.Rbd2 b5 31.Kf2 Kf6 32.Ke3 h6 33.h4 a5 34.f4 h5 35.a3 a4 36.bxa4 bxa4 37.Ke2 R8d7 38.Rd3 Kf7 39.R1d2 Re7+ 40.Kf3 Rb7 41.Re3 Rb3 42.Rdd3 Rxd3 43.Rxd3 Ke7 44.Rc3 Rxd5 45.Ke3 Kd6 46.Rc4 Kc6 47.Rxa4 Kb5 48.Ra7 c4 49.Rb7+ Kc6 50.Rg7 c3 51.Rg8 Kb7 52.Rg7+ Kb6 53.Rxg6+ Kc5 54.Rg8 Kc4 55.Rc8+ Kb3 56.a4 c2 57.Rb8+ Kxa4 58.Rc8 Kb3 59.Rb8+ Kc3 60.Rc8+ Kb2 61.Rb8+ Kc1 62.Ke2 Rd2+ 63.Ke1 Rd4 64.Ke2 Re4+ 65.Kf3 0-1


They played the Queen’s Indian, old main line for 16 moves.

Here is the position after Black moved 41…Rb3

At this point I was expecting the game to be a draw, both machines had played well. However, this is a key position and both players need to be careful especially as they both have passed pawns. White must not let Black’s c5 pawn through and must also maintain the pressure of his own passed pawn on d5, therefore the positions of the rooks are key here. One possible line of play is 42.Ke2 removing the pin on his e3 rook. 42…Rxe3ch 43.Kxe3 and the game is heading towards a draw. If instead black advances his pawn 42…c4 43.Rc2 Rxd5 44.Rxc4 Rb2ch 45.Kf3 and its leading to another draw. However, the new CGPro2024 made a bad move and the older CGPro capitalized on it!
From the above position White played 42.Rdd3? This allows black to exchange Rooks and now White has to defend his d5 pawn and worry about Black’s passed pawn, not good! 42…Rxd3! Yes, the CGPro sees the way ahead!

From here the CGPro played very well and the CGPro2024 offered resignation at move 65 which I accepted on behalf of the CGPro.

As was expected this match is very balanced so far with 3 points each but interesting. Obviously the extra knowledge in the newer machine did not help in this game.

Ray

Geändert von Ray (19.11.2023 um 13:14 Uhr) Grund: Spelling correction
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  #5  
Alt 20.11.2023, 12:18
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Re: Millennium CGPro2024 v Older CGPro

Game 7/10
[Event "CGP2024 V CGP 40m/2h 20m/1h Classic Book"]
[Round "7"]
[White "CGPRO"]
[Black "CGP2024"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C10"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Nf3 Be7 6.Bc4 Ngf6 7.Nxf6+ Nxf6 8.Bg5 O-O 9.O-O b6 10.Ne5 Bb7 11.Re1 Nd5 12.Bxe7 Qxe7 {Both out of book} 13.Qf3 c5 14.dxc5 Qxc5 15.Bd3 Qc7 16.c4 Nf6 17.Qe3 Rfd8 18.Rad1 Rac8 19.Bc2 h6 20.Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.f3 Qc5 22.Qxc5 bxc5 23.Rd1 Rxd1+ 24.Bxd1 Kf8 25.Ba4 Ke7 26.h4 Ng8 27.Nd3 Kd6 28.Be8 f6 29.Bf7 Ne7 30.Bxe6 Ng6 31.h5 Ne5 32.Nf4 Bc6 33.b3 g5 34.hxg6 Nxg6 35.Nxg6 Kxe6 36.Kf2 Kd6 37.Nf4 a5 38.Ke3 Bd7 39.Nd5 Ke5 40.g4 Ke6 41.Nc3 f5 42.gxf5+ Kxf5 43.Ne4 h5 44.Nxc5 Bc6 45.a3 h4 46.b4 h3 47.Nd3 h2 48.Nf2 axb4 49.axb4 Bb7 50.b5 Ke6 51.c5 Kd5 52.c6 Bc8 53.Kf4 Be6 54.Kg3 Kc5 55.c7 Kxb5 56.Kxh2 Kc6 57.c8=Q+ Bxc8 58.Kg3 Kd5 59.Kh4 Bf5 60.Kg5 Ke6 61.Nd1 Bc2 62.Ne3 Bh7 63.f4 Be4 64.Nd1 Bd3 65.Nc3 Bc2 66.Ne2 Bb1 67.Nd4+ Ke7 68.Nb3 Be4 69.Nd2 Bd3 70.Nf3 1/2-1/2


In this game the French, Rubinstein variation was played until move 11.

All was level until around the half-way point. Here is the position after the CGP2024 moved 29…Ne7:

The CGP playing with the white pieces made a good move 30.Bxe6! If Black responds by taking white’s Bishop 30…KxB 31.Nxc5+ Ke5 and Black loses his Bishop. However, Black played 30…Ng6 and is a pawn down. Better would have been 30…Bxf3 31.gxf3 Kxe6 with a level position. The CGP2024 mis-calculated the position and not through a lack of search depth!

In the following position the CGP2024 made another bad move:

Black to play and a pawn down. Here the CGP2024 had not benefited from any extra endgame knowledge and made the move 33…g5? This weakens his Queen-side pawn structure after white plays 33.hxg6. White now has a winning chance.

However, as the game ended in a draw then obviously the original CGP must have also mis-calculated. In the following position white is in a good position with three passed pawns. Black does have a pawn on h3 but White can deal with that:

In this position the CGP turned a winning game into a draw with the move 47.Nd3? The game continued 47…h2 48.Nf2 to prevent Black queening 48…axb4 axb4 and now White cannot afford to move his knight and Black can hamper White’s pawn advance. A better move for White would have been 47.Ne4 maintaining the winning position. Play might have continued 47…h2 and now 48.Ng3+ is the best plan because Black cannot queen without losing it and he must move his King losing tempo:

Now White can move 49.b5 and Black is in trouble with passed pawns marching up the board!

I think in this case the CGP was unable to calculate far enough ahead to see the mistake and missed a winning chance.

Play battled on and I persevered in case of more mistakes but when the CGP2024 offered a draw I accepted on behalf of the CGP.

As expected they are level so far, although I really thought the newer model was going to lose this game.

3 ½ – 3 ½

Ray
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  #6  
Alt 21.11.2023, 12:58
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Re: Millennium CGPro2024 v Older CGPro

Game 8/10

It’s another draw, this time by 3rd fold repition. I hope this is not boring for people, but I’m actually enjoying the test of the CG Pro engines at this slow time control. I knew the match would be close but wanted to try and find out if the differences in the engines would be highlighted. So far the CGPro2024 has a won game in the least number of moves, but this doesn’t mean much. The same could happen the other way around given enough games, and there is time yet to witness this.

The older CGPro does calculate further ahead, especially noticeable in the end game and I have seen it calculate an extra 2ply. That said, it’s not made a difference so far in the score in this match so maybe the extra knowledge in the newer CGPro makes up for this? Swings and roundabouts as they say, in some positions the extra search depth may help and in others, the extra knowledge may make the difference.

[Event "CGP2024 V CGP 40m/2h 20m/1h Classic Book"]
[Round "8"]
[White "CGP2024"]
[Black "CGPro"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C49"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bb5 Bb4 5.O-O O-O 6.d3 d6 7.Bg5 Bxc3 8.bxc3 Bd7 9.Nd2 Ne7 10.Bxf6 gxf6 {Both out of book} 11.Bxd7 Qxd7 12.Qf3 Qe6 13.a4 b6 14.a5 Kh8 15.axb6 axb6 16.d4 Kg7 17.Rfb1 Rg8 18.d5 Qd7 19.c4 h6 20.Qh5 f5 21.Qh3 Rad8 22.Ra7 fxe4 23.Qxd7 Rxd7 24.Nxe4 f5 25.Ng3 Kf6 26.f3 Nc8 27.Rb7 Re7 28.Ra1 Kg6 29.Ra8 Reg7 30.Ne2 Ne7 31.Ra6 Nc8 32.Kf1 h5 33.Ra8 Kh6 34.g3 h4 35.Rbb8 Ne7 36.Rxg8 Nxg8 37.gxh4 Nf6 38.Kf2 Kh5 39.Rh8+ Kg6 40.Rf8 Rh7 41.Kg3 Re7 42.c3 Re8 43.Rxe8 Nxe8 44.Nc1 Kh5 45.Kh3 f4 46.Nd3 Ng7 47.Nf2 Nf5 48.Ne4 Nxh4 49.Nf6+ Kg5 50.Ne4+ Kh5 51.Nf6+ Kg5 52.Ne4+ Kh5 1/2-1/2


The Four Knights, symmetrical variation was played until both machines were out of book at move 10.

It’s been mentioned before but the Classic book (London) contains dubious lines and that is the case in this game. At move 9 both machines were still in book but the selected moves starting from Black’s 8th move are either interesting or dubious:

Black had just moved 8…Bd7?! Qe7 is considered good.

Play continued 9.Nd2 Ne7? Better would have been the book move 9…h6! 10.Bxf6 gxf6 11/Bxd7 Qxd7:

And white is in a much stronger position while Black’s King is now exposed.

Apart from weakness in the Classic opening book both machines played accurately and defended well, so we have the unsurprising draw.

Score now is 4 – 4

Ray
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  #7  
Alt 22.11.2023, 12:42
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Re: Millennium CGPro2024 v Older CGPro

Game 9/10

[Event "CGP2024 V CGP 40m/2h 20m/1h Classic Book"]
[Round "9"]
[White "CGPRO"]
[Black "CGP2024"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B09"]

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 c5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.e5 Ng4 8.e6 fxe6 9.Ng5 Bxb5 10.Nxb5 Qa5+ 11.c3 Qxb5 12.Qxg4 cxd4 13.Nxe6 Qc4 14.Nxg7+ Kf7 15.Nf5 Qe6+ 16.Ne3 dxe3 17.Qxe6+ Kxe6 18.Bxe3 Rc8 {Out of book} 19.O-O-O {Out of book} 19...Nd7 20.Rhe1 Kf7 21.Re2 Nf6 22.Bd4 Rc7 23.Kc2 a5 24.a4 Nd5 25.g3 Ra6 26.Rde1 Rac6 27.Kb3 Nf6 28.h3 d5 29.Be5 Rd7 30.Rd1 e6 31.Ka3 Ke7 32.Bxf6+ Kxf6 33.Re5 Rc4 34.Rde1 Rd6 35.h4 h5 36.R1e3 Rdc6 37.Re1 Rd6 38.R5e3 Kf5 39.Re5+ Kf6 1/2-1/2


Surprise, surprise another draw. They played the Pirc Defence: Austrian Attack and by move 19 were both out of book. There were no obvious blunders (only SF could see a slight advantage for White in places but neither machine would have seen that), in fact both played very accurately. So accurate that the game ended as a draw by 3-fold repetition.

Current score 4 ½ - 4 ½ With everything riding on the last game!

To be honest, if either machine wins the last game it’s not conclusive evidence that one is stronger than the other, probably more down to the luck of the chosen opening.

Ray
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  #8  
Alt 22.11.2023, 18:22
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AW: Millennium CGPro2024 v Older CGPro

Die 2 Programme kennen sich, die spielen immer auf Remis
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  #9  
Alt 23.11.2023, 10:48
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Re: AW: Millennium CGPro2024 v Older CGPro

 Zitat von udo Beitrag anzeigen
Die 2 Programme kennen sich, die spielen immer auf Remis
Yes, I think that must be the case

Ray
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  #10  
Alt 23.11.2023, 11:48
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Re: Millennium CGPro2024 v Older CGPro

Game 10/10
[Event "CGP2024 V CGP 40m/2h 20m/1h Classic Book"]
[Round "10"]
[White "CGP2024"]
[Black "CGPro"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B13"]

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 g6 6.Nf3 Nh6 7.O-O Bf5 8.Bxh6 Bxd3 9.Qxd3 Bxh6 {Both out of book.} 10.Qb5 Rb8 11.Ne5 O-O 12.f4 e6 13.Qe2 Rc8 14.Nd2 Bg7 15.Rae1 Na5 16.Ndf3 h6 17.Qf2 b5 18.Nd3 Nc4 19.Nfe5 Re8 20.Nc5 Bf8 21.Ncd3 Kg7 22.Qe2 Qa5 23.a3 Qc7 24.Rf2 Bd6 25.Qf3 a5 26.Qg3 b4 27.axb4 axb4 28.f5 Bxe5 29.dxe5 exf5 30.Nxb4 Nxe5 31.Rfe2 Qc5+ 32.Qf2 Qxf2+ 33.Kxf2 Ng4+ 34.Kg3 Rxe2 35.Rxe2 Rc5 36.h3 Nf6 37.Kf3 Ne4 38.Ke3 Rb5 39.Re1 g5 40.Rd1 f4+ 41.Ke2 Nf6 42.Kd3 Ne4 43.Ke2 Nf6 44.Kd3 Ne4 45.Ke2 1/2-1/2


The final game and unfortunately no win to make it more exciting finish. That said, at least in this match it’s showing that any strength difference between the machines is likely very small if at all, and may only be revealed after many more games. At least it’s not a backward step in terms of playing strength which I did not expect to witness anyway.

So on to the game:

The Caro-Kann: Exchange variation and Panov-Botvinnik Attack (wow!) was played until both were out of book at move 9.

Not much to be said, there were no blunders just good play from both sides.

Final score 5 – 5

They each achieved 2 won games and possibly the most exciting win was by the CGP2024 in game 4. Both the older CG Pro’s wins were playing with the black pieces.

I noticed that the older model’s eval would tend to be a little higher at times indicating a definite difference in the programs. I also felt that some of the attacking play by the programs was not analysed deep enough to be carried through with conviction. For example, in some situations one side would look to be forming an aggressive attack but would not have enough supporting pieces to see it through. This is very unlike the King engine but is a mistake I sometimes make in my own games so I should learn from this!

Ray
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